[Talking about the weekly jam session, making money from alcohol sales, and why Jameson should sponsor him]
Gene Harding: I usually don’t have problems with the projection in my voice.
Interviewer: I can hear that. It’s out there.
Gene: What are y’all doing this evening is the question.
Interviewer: I haven’t figured it out yet. What should we be doing?
Gene: You ought to come and see my band do the Super Jam. We’re back doing it in front of the Royal Frenchmen tonight.
Interviewer: Wait, the Monday jam is now on Thursdays?
Gene: It’s on just for right now.
Interviewer: I heard about this. What time does it start then?
Gene: From 7:00 to 11:00.
everybody’s been coming now that they found out. We did it all through February. If you remember how cold it was those first two Thursdays.
Interviewer: Yes, it was so cold.
Gene: That second week, it was 28 degrees. I couldn’t feel my hands until the third song. I thought the sticks were going to fall out of my hand. Man, we played it though. We played it, and I’ll tell you, at no time did they have more than 15 people out there. They still, they bought us rounds of drinks. That’s the one thing, but my band is the Jameson Band. It is what it is.
Interviewer: You guys should get a sponsorship.
Gene: I know, man. I’ve been trying to figure out how to do that, who I need to talk to. What’s the liquor week that happens here?
Interviewer: Tales of the Cocktail?
Interviewer 2: Tales of the Cocktail. I feel like lots of people get liquor sponsorships for shows during that week.
Gene: I know. I should have got– Let me tell you how much it is. I played at Maison and at 30/90. Both of them, literally have a Jameson closet for liquor. That’s only dedicated to Jameson, seriously.
Interviewer: I believe that.
Gene: That’s how much Jameson– I’ve seen people buy us countless rounds on a Monday. Go in on it because what people don’t realize is when I do it, which relates to this, is I’m getting a percentage on the dollar every time somebody buys me a shot. Now, the beauty of it is, I have a band that gets people out and gets them up and pumping and gets off that energy. Should somebody be penalized because it’s just not a high-energy band but they’re really good and they can bring some people in there? Should they be penalized? Because people still enjoy you. They buy us a drink, but they don’t buy as many drinks.
[Going way back, the early years, and the formation of “the jam”]
Gene: Because we got to go way back. They got all kinds of stuff.
Interviewer: Well, I mean that’s just it. Frenchmen, it’s changed greatly. What’s the price you said you were asking people, and what’s your favorite Frenchmen memory or story? A certain night that stands out?
Gene: One time after Katrina, we were playing and all the power went out in all the clubs. Everybody stopped, and I just said, ‘The hell with it,’ and kept playing the drums. I mean, I was solo-ing I don’t know how long, and when I look up, it was jet-black at night. I think Walter was at DBA; a bunch of people came from DBA, and all the clubs, because it got dark. They came over, because they heard the music, and Conan—you know Conan just died not too long ago—Conan came in, and he had a tiki torch. He brought a tiki torch in there, and I played for about an hour with no power! It was packed in there. People were buying drinks and everything.
[…]
Gene: I got my start when I started playing at 25. I just picked up a pair of drums, a set of drums after going to the Jazz Fest and watching Herman Ernest and Junkyard Dog, who played for Walter Wolfman Washington, his original drummer. For a year, I practiced, and then I just started going out and playing with people. I would just go to Open Mic Jam at Checkpoint Charlie’s. It was Mike Darby running it way back then.
Interviewer: What year-ish would that be–
Gene: That had to be ’96 or ’97. I was about 25, something like that, because I didn’t start playing until I was about 25 years old. It had to be ’96, something like that. So, he had his jam. Something happened, and they couldn’t do it anymore. That’s how I ended up starting. I was like, “I’m not that good, but I’ll show up on time and I know how to make money.” We had a really successful jam. I cut my teeth on jams.
Then, I left and I came back. I came back right before Katrina [2005]. When I left, there was– Dream Palace was Cafe Istanbul. Istanbul, which is now Blue Nile. Suleyman still owned that. Across the street was Cafe Brazil. I had done a couple of gigs at Cafe Brazil. I didn’t really play at the Dream Palace or whatever, but I used to go there all the time. There was bands like Iris May Tango. I would go see the Klezmer All Stars. Originally, the name was Galactic Prophylactic. That was Galactic’s original name.
Interviewer: I didn’t know that.
Gene: Yes. I would go check all of those dudes, Klezmer All Stars. Who else? I would just go check out all those musicians and learn. When I came back to Frenchmen, it was a whole another ballgame after Katrina. After Katrina, they didn’t have as many people playing. We didn’t know who was in town, people, stuff like that, so we started playing there at the club. Some of these clubs went through two, three different owners so it’s hard to get a thing.
Before Cafe Negril got its current owner, it went through about three or four different owners. They were trying to do different things with it, so you would come up, and then, there was no pay structure at all really.
At that time, a lot of the bands had not yet proven themselves either. I understand the other side of the coin. “How do we figure out how we’re going to do it?” What happened one time– This is how the majority of the percentages started. I was playing at Cafe Negril, and he was closed on Mondays, and I wanted to run a jam because I had done the Checkpoint Charlie thing. When I lived in DC and Dallas, I had done jams there.
I said, “Look, you’re not open on Monday. Why don’t we open up? Look, you just get somebody to work the thing. I’ll handle all of the music. Let’s do a percentage. If you make money, I make money. If you don’t make money, I don’t make money.” It started like it was in November and it was like a brutal winter. It was freezing. Nobody was coming out and it was looking ugly. I remember he wanted to pull a plug, and I’m like, “Bro, give me two more weeks.” What I realized is in those two weeks, Mardi Gras was coming up, so people were coming anyway. If I could just get to Mardi Gras, I could get all right. That’s what happened. The rest is history with with the jam.
Interviewer: What year was that?
Gene: That had to be ’07, ’08 at the most.
Interviewer: I got here in 2007. I think I went to that!
Gene: I had a lot of different people. I could go through all of the different members of the jam. Because the New Orleans Super Jam actually existed before Gene’s Music Machine which is my band because I was running the jam long before that. I got all the rights to the New Orleans Super Jam and all of that stuff. It was a concept I had that it wasn’t a day or a club, it was all about the music. At the time, it was great for me because I know how to throw a party, invite a bunch of musicians.
It is unique to this city because nowhere else in such close proximity of that many musicians that can get to it. Like in DC and Dallas, to get to the jam, it might be an hour drive or something. You know I mean? Here, you could walk to it. A lot of musicians just walked there if they live in the Bywater or they’re on gigs because there are so many other gigs in that area.
Interviewer 1: Right.
Gene: Then [2007], there wasn’t anything else going on. They had Walter [Wolfman Washington] would be at d.b.a. on Thursday, and it was Glen David Andrews. Me and Glen, we coincided with each other.
Interviewer 1: Right.
Gene: It never was a conflict. We actually, him at d.b.a. and me at Negril, it literally packed that side of Frenchmen. Literally, it was nothing down there because they had Ray’s Boom Boom Room come, but Ray’s Boom Boom Room had some issues with sound. At the time, at one point, they didn’t have liquor and they didn’t have a– you didn’t have a credit card machine and all of this.
[Talking about the various clubs on Frenchmen through the years]
Interviewer: Where’s that? Where is that now?
Gene: It’s Maison. It used to be Ray’s Boom Boom Room. Bamboula’s was nothing. That was just a building. Then right next to it, 30/90 was an empty lot.
Interviewer: This is like ’07-ish?
Gene: Yes. All the way up to– shoot, man, ’14 maybe.
Interviewer: Yes, it was there– Bamboula’s was there when I got here, which was ’14.
Gene: Okay. Snug Harbor has been there forever. That’s a staple. The [Marigny] Brasserie was something else. I remember it used to be the Rubyfruit Jungle back then.
Interviewer: That was before my day.
Gene: Yes. I just know it was the Rubyfruit Jungle, then it was something else, an alternative bar of some sort, I don’t know. Then, that bakery wasn’t anything else, but that little bakery [Cafe Rose Nicaud] which I think now is closed.
Interviewer 1: Yes. They closed during– right before the pandemic or just-
Interviewer 2: That said that they just retired.
Gene: The bike stop had been there for a long time. d.b.a. has been there before Katrina and stuff like that. That was one of the few clubs that was there before The Spotted Cat. That kind of came a little after.
Interviewer: The Spotted Cat opened in 2001.
Gene: Yes. Because everybody knew, if you go to The Apple Barrel, you could catch Coco Robicheaux and he would just be in there and he would just hang, and you could run into him and be like, “That’s the dude who do the commercials.” Everybody was always asking about Cafe Brazil. I might not be able to give you specifics. I could narrow some of them days down and stuff like that.
I remember because I did have Brazil and I– man, if I didn’t hear it a hundred times, people would ask me, “What are they doing with that?” I posted the thing, there’s a Facebook group about memories of Cafe Brazil.
Gene: Yes. I didn’t get a chance to look at it. Yes, I saw you had, I got it.
Interviewer 1: You looked at it, right?
Interviewer 2: I’ve looked at it, yes.
Interviewer 1: There’s photographs of people who are just talking. I’m like, does anybody know who this is?
Gene: I’m going to have to go look. I can get probably some– I knew a lot of people!
Cheryl and them– it was Cheryl. They were the Shepherd Band that’s now the most– some of them in the Higher Heights.
Interviewer 1: Oh, okay.
Gene: That was the Shepherd Band. They, at one point on Frenchmen too, had a really strong reggae scene. Everybody would be there, and they would go right around the corner to the– what’s that?
Interviewer: Dragon’s Den?
Gene: Dragon’s Den, yes. They would be upstairs at the Dragon’s Den, especially on– they had a sake night. Everybody– like that’s what happens, like all of a sudden, I arrive one night and jump off, and that night jumped off and everybody would go get the sake and just go check out the DJ.
[Talking about the business side of music, tipping, and getting paid]
Gene: The reality for me, I see the big picture because I was on both sides. I’ve been a waiter, bartender, manager. You name it, I’ve done it in the restaurant business. I usually work on Bourbon Street but when you make money– I see that you got to make the money if I’m making the money you make. It works great for me, but every band, that just doesn’t work for them. That scenario, and in every scenario, it cannot work for every person.
We all musicians, we trying to get to the same destination, but we all can’t take the same road. We’re going to have a traffic jam. Some people are trying this, they’re doing different things. They’re trying this, and hopefully throwing stuff against the wall, and hopefully, something sticks, but meanwhile, playing up and down Frenchmen for me, I went to Maison which had just been bought out.
I went down there and I negotiated with them, and I just started the jam at Maison, and it started doing like this. The bottom line is, if you are bringing in the people, you’re going to make that money.
Interviewer: How does the pay usually work? Or is it different club to club? Is it usually a percentage or is it like a flat fee per head?
Gene: All right. Well, part of my reasoning was doing this shit is because on Bourbon Street, that’s what they do. Bourbon street IS $20 a person. It used to be $15. Some of ’em is still $15 to $20.
Interviewer: Right.
Gene: Which is ridiculous. That’s been since the fricking 80s.
Interviewer: Using per hour set, right?
Gene: Yes. 45 and 15. The only reason they have that is because there were labor laws, and the union came in and made them have those 15 off. Then, people who eventually started doing two sets and then 30 off, an hour and a half and 30 off and just doing shit. The thing is, you can do what you want, you just can’t force people to do them type of hours. That’s what was starting to happen again down on Bourbon Street way where it’s like, “You got to do this, and you got to do this. You got to play these many hours.”
We came ran into that with a couple of bands I played with. The thing is, they see me because my band is built for that. What a lot of people don’t realize is I got an eight-piece band, there’s actually two bands on stage at all the time. At any moment, three people can take a break, four people can take a break. It’s just like, and when everybody playing, we just– when it’s like that people take a break, we have just a regular car. A few people take a break, we become a pickup. When we all on, we’re just a semi going down the road, just get bigger and bigger and stronger.
Look, I tell musicians this all the time. You cannot be afraid to walk away from the gig. Every gig is not a good gig, and so be it. Me, my personal theory, just try to be the best on the street and they got to come to you. I got too many unique people on stage that make you stay and watch them.
One, it creates a competition, which works out good for the club because you should get the best out of every band. A band doesn’t come in and say, “Whatever, I’m going to get– I’m going to play four hours, I get $25 a set. I’m going to get $100 no matter rain, sleet, or snow.” They just start going through the motions. Next thing you know, you’ve been playing for $20 a set on Bourbon Street, seven hours is deceiving. You think you making money because you’re playing eight, nine hours, and you see all your money in a week. It looks good, that little change, but it’s a ceiling. You still talking about when you add it all up and divide it, it’s $20 an hour and you play it. Then, you look up and you’re like, “Shit, it’s 20 years later and I’m doing the same shit.”
That’s one thing that is different about Bourbon and Frenchmen. Frenchmen, you’re going to see that uniqueness, but the whole point of this where I got off track was, Bourbon Street gives you that $20 per set [vs. Frenchmen where it’s often a percentage of the alcohol sales]
Once again, you can have a million clubs, and people do remember those certain things about the club, but what do they remember? The moments, the bands in the club. They remember the people, the events, the things that happen. That’s what make the club. Now, if the club owner is smart, they just use that because the club is a vehicle for the music.
After Katrina, it was like I said, “A wild, wild west.” People were doing all kinds of stuff. People wanted to go. They thought it was going to be the same, and I just realized it was going to be real different. A lot of things. The places were changing, all around the area. White people wouldn’t be caught on St. Claude Avenue before Katrina. Now I see a drunk Bachelorette party drunk, staggering at two in the morning, and I would be like, “Wow, man–” Also, after Katrina, you had an influx of new musicians. That’s where you have this discrepancy with guys who are, ‘purists’, and all of that shit. I’m like, “Man, oh, you’re not from here.” I don’t give a damn where you’re from, it’s where you’re at, what you do, and what you put in.
I got people who are not from here, who embody everything this city is about, and if you care about that, you shallow in yourself. The majority of the people are not from here. When you start naming a lot of famous people, you realize, “Oh, they weren’t from here originally. Prof. Long Hair, and shit.” Come on, man. Who cares? He embodies New Orleans, and he took this and made his home in his music, in his style, so that’s what it’s about. Now, my thing is I love it so much, I want to keep on doing it. How can we get more money and do it?
That’s all I got figured out, and let me tell you what I have found out also. It is all about the quality of your showmanship, and what you can pull from that street at this point. In the beginning, it was the hang. Matter of fact, Frenchmen was billed as this where the locals go to hang, after Katrina.
I remember going and paying people at the hotel to send people down to Frenchmen like the bellhops, and the doormans, yeah, I’d give them money and it got me returns. I started doing it and man, the repeat customers.
I got an 8-piece band. We were averaging, for us, somewhere around; I’d say 160 to 200 every Monday.
Interviewer: Wow.
Gene: Yes. Then we’d turn right back around and go to Maison on Tuesday. We wouldn’t do as much. We started right before COVID started. We started doing almost the same, but it took a while to build it up because people didn’t know.
So many musicians, the ones that you want them to come in [and play], they got their start at the jam. If you’re from another city and you’re in another place, the first place you want to come, if you want to play, you got to figure out how can I get people to hear me? In a lot of cities, it’s hard. It’s hard. You’re like, “Man how can I even find somebody?” What? Go to guitar center and pull off them little [paper] tabs?” [laughter]
Interviewer:: That’s how you find your bandmates, you go to the jam, and you see somebody you like, and you’re like, cool!
Gene: Man, people do that and it’s at the point now where people just call me and ask me and I got a list of all of them and I’m honest with them. I’ll let them know, “Oh, he’s great!” I’m going to be straight with you because if you call me and you say I need a, horn player, say, I’m not going to send you somebody jacked up.
Interviewer: [laughs] You’re basically a booking agency.
Gene: No, but I don’t get paid for it. Yes, I’m the middle man. I bring people together just in general. What I do is, once I do it, I’m like, “Look, here. You all do your thing. I’ll put you all together.” A lot of times I’m like, “You don’t know him, I don’t know– you all should know each other. You all need to exchange numbers like now!” No, I was just going to say, but even if you’re not as boisterous as me and outspoken that doesn’t mean you shouldn’t get paid.
Interviewer: Wait let’s talk about tipping for a second. Tipping is I’m assuming part of how you make your take-home pay, right? It’s the percentage from the bar, also right?
Gene: Yes.
Interviewer: One of the things that I was asking people a couple of years ago was just like ‘give me an estimate’, like what percentage of musicians’ money comes from tips and what percentage from the bar?
Gene: With us, it just varies. It’s so crazy because, on one night, we might get $1,600 from the bar it depends on who’s in town. We got lawyers who else? We have the wrestling people they were good. Matter of fact, I made a little wrestling room. Who else? Certain nurses are always great the nurses I love the nurses.
[laughter]
I’ll tell you what I have had experience doing great with some of my best weekends have been Essence Fest, you know why? I’ll tell people this, “I’m Black; I know how it is. I know how it goes.” Black people don’t mind tipping when you do something. It is what it is, Black. If you walk in and I felt this walk in and you sit in a restaurant at a table and the waiters like, “Uhh.” They feel like they’re not going to get a tip because I’m a Black person, before they even know anything.
What they don’t know is I’m one of the best tippers you ever want to meet. I did waiting since I was– I lied when I was 14 and I started working on Bourbon Street and doing all kinds of stuff down there at a restaurant. When I tell you, I did everything from the busboy to kitchen, I don’t know it has a negative sound so I hate to say it but my official title was, the salad boy.
[laughter]
Interviewer: I’ve been thinking a lot about tipping not in restaurants but for musicians because it’s such a different thing
Gene: This is the thing about tipping too, you got to ensure proper service that’s right. If you want a tip you got to give proper service. How can you get mad at somebody for not tipping you? Look I think about it like this, people are already out here because they want to see music, down on Frenchmen. They want to see this they want to be in this vibe, some of them just want to walk up and down whatever.
Interviewer: Yes, you talked about throwing a party or getting people to drink there’s all these skills that are not the actual playing the drums…
Gene: Also,there’s a difference between begging and asking, and that’s how you word it. For me, I’m going to stand up and be like look I’m coming around with this tip jar, we’re going to earn this we’re going to play this next song, we’re going to earn this tip you know what I’m saying. These musicians are up here kicking ass so here I come show some love. I don’t know if it’s just me personally I hate the whole spiel about ‘this is our job. This is how we make a living’ and whatever. One doesn’t have anything to do with the other one.
Whether you making a living on this doesn’t matter, you up here playing is your song, or what you’re doing worthy of the tip is what the question is? Now, if it is and you’re not getting tipped that’s the issue. If you’re not putting out there and then you’re just begging and then if you do it every five minutes it just becomes monotonous.
I’ve got rules we’re not going to even speak about a tip until we’re five songs in, and we don’t do long songs.
For me, every aspect of getting the money and making people not have buyers-remorse also. I want you to feel good. I want you to be walking and be like, “Man, I wish I had more money to tip them”.
Interviewer: Right.
Gene: As opposed to like, “Damn man.” Look you go for a band. My band, the bucket is littered with 5s, 10s, and 20s. If you just got nothing but $1s in your tip jar, that’s people just want you out of their face.
Interviewer: Yes.
Gene: It is what it is. That’s the way I look at it. If I don’t see no 5s, no 10s, no 20s, and I’ve been playing all night and we have had some type of decent crowd, that might be me, but with that being said, I will put on a show!
Interviewer: Okay, wait, I have a question. Through all your experience, what is the ideal– not amount of pay, but the ideal way to get paid. Is it a cover charge? Is it from the bar? Is it percent from the bar plus tips…?
Gene: For me, what I usually try to do is do a guarantee versus the bar. That usually gets me, especially on a Friday, give me a 1,000 versus the bar, and that doesn’t put a ceiling on me.
Interviewer 1: 20%, I’m assuming overall?
Gene: 20% or 25%. I’m a harsh negotiator.
[laughter]
Gene: I usually get a little more than most people, but I feel like I bring a little more than most people. I usually get, when I’m playing at a club, I negotiate in some type of meal. I’m not trying to get an entree or nothing, something to keep us full and I negotiate that first little round so we can do the thing. Then I always leave the do open to do some more.
[A few final thoughts]
Gene: I’m one of those people who just, you got to be relevant, you always be around. Or I hang around, I’ll pick up another gig when I’m on a gig. If it’s not the Music Machine or the Super Jam, you will have hired a drummer (or whatever instrument I’m playing), who will be focused on making you sound good and do that.
Also, I have a strong personality and I have so many things go on, I also let people know that I even back away further. I don’t put my stamp on anything. I’m a “This is your thing. You run it; you do your thing. I will be your drummer and back up or do whatever.” That’s how I get to play with a lot of people.
Interviewer: Being a good sideman of its own skill.
Gene: Yes, indeed. I just want to always keep having fun and helping other people. I could give advice to a lot of people. I’ve seen some things.
But back to the tipping, like you were asking about that percentage, man, I mean, it is hard to predict what you get. Another thing is, it’s hard to predict if you are just going to have people out. I’ll go and look through the, they have a listing for what’s coming in town with conventions. All of that stuff, but anytime they have a convention, a big one, I need to know it’s in town. I’m looking at who’s coming in, I’m always a step ahead.
When the Saints schedule comes out, soon as it comes out, I start booking. I book all those week Fridays. If I got certain clubs, I’ll play one Friday out the month, so they got two or three, I’ll play one Friday here, one Friday here, one Friday there, or two in a month. I’m just like, “All right, I want this one on Thursday.”
Interviewer: I’ve got a couple of other quick things. You’ve been on Frenchmen like ’96 to 2021?
Gene: Well, no, I left in ’98 to ’01. I lived in DC. That’s where I learned that Go-Go.
Interviewer 1: Oh, I got that.
Gene: It was a whole lot of different. Then I went to Dallas. From 2001 to ’04.
Interviewer 1: All right. Even with the gap, what year or years was Frenchman Street the street, the best?
Gene: Now. [this interview was done in 2021]
Interviewer 1: [laughs] Now is closed.
[laughter]
Gene: Right this second. Hey look, I always like, it’s an opportunity. I’m going to survive, no matter what. I’m gonna scrape. It’s been rough as hell, right now. Now, when you walk down the street and see everything boarded up, and there’s just no even opportunity. I understand why, so I’m not tripping on that, but there’s this yearning to play with different musicians.
The difference between Frenchmen– I’ll tell you another huge difference between Frenchmen and Bourbon Street. Bourbon street, you can easily get in the rut because you’re at that same club three, four, five days out the week. If I go play at one club, it’s every day from 12:00 to 7:00, or 7:00 to close, or something like that, right? Come there every day, five days a week, play that, take a weekend or every other day, whatever, four days a week. There you play the same song, you’re doing the same shit. Different people come in Sweet Home Alabama, Sweet Caroline, beautiful songs, lovely. Meanwhile, on Frenchmen, one day you’re at one club, next day you’re at a whole another club environment, different bartenders, different scenery. You’re not always in a rut.
Interviewer 1: Different regulars.
Gene: Yes, different things. Also, you have different people coming in that particular club. What happens is on Bourbon Street, you’ll see the same people walking up and down the street, come and see you three days in a row. Then what they realize is just the same shit you’ve been playing since the first day I got here. You’re like, “I’m glad I’m going. You don’t want to hear that song again. Could you imagine how we feel playing that shit?” [laughter]
It’s just those little differences to me, give Frenchmen the little upper hand. Also, like I said, you rarely see any original type bands on Bourbon Street. Matter of fact, I watch Bourbon Street bands do the same arrangements. You can be hearing one band playing Mustang Sally and walk four doors down and get the next one playing with the exact same arrangement.
I don’t care if you do a song. I believe you’ll never hear me say anything about a song like Mustang Sally, Brick House, I will play all that shit right until I write a Grammy-winning song. Who am I to be too good to play an incredible song? The problem isn’t that the song isn’t incredible. If you go and listen to all, every last one of the songs, by the original artist or [unintelligible 01:13:47], and you’re like, “Damn that shit. That shit was hip.” Then you go back out and listen to them, and you’re like, “That sounds like crap.” One, a lot of people on Bourbon Street learned the song wrong from other people. They learned it out there and they learned it wrong.
Which in turn makes it real easy for me. I hear all the time. People tell me, “I saw you two years ago. You remember me?” I don’t remember you because it’s just too many people, it’s not personal. But then he’s like, “Man, you’re doing a whole another show.” Yes. Then he’s like, “Yes, the band I went to, they’re playing the same shit.” If you are trying to play my songs and you come to my show and watch the band, by the time you got the stuff that we’ve done there, we’ve already progressed on to some more stuff..
Interviewer 1: Yes, yes, yes! The only other things that I would be curious about would be, let’s see. Okay. I’m sure this has changed over the years, but of all the gigs that you play, what percentage are on Frenchmen Street? Is it half of your gigs, is it less, is it more?
Gene: I would say about 70%, 75% of my gigs. Just because I play with everybody down there, literally. The rest of them are festivals, a tour with Mem Shannon, Glenn David Andrews, and played with him a lot. Since COVID, I still do. Since COVID, 60% of my gigs.
[laughter]
